2001 Robert Stanley

ROBERT: Tell me about the government disclosure letter you are circulating?

DAVID: That letter came out of a series of events when I first testified for Dr. Steven Greer in 1997. And what I believe is happening with him is he got pulled into a covert operation. He is highly intelligent and also very arrogant. Despite the fact that he sequestered me for quite a few hours.

I still like the man. I think he really stepped into it. And I think he finally met up with the real covert world. You know we talk about it, especially in the metaphysical UFO community, I hear so many people talk about it like they know it. But you can talk all you want, I guarantee you if you ever met a real covert operative you would flip. You would just freak out because they are very serious, very lethal. No negotiating. It's hard line all the way. They are very intimidating. They love to intimidate people. You know, about 5 weeks after I testified Dr.. Greer's assistant died.

ROBERT: From cancer.

DAVID: Right. But it was an unusual form of cancer even though it was melanoma. It was galloping cancer.

ROBERT: Which means its very fast acting.

DAVID: It was. And once they diagnose you are lucky if you have 6 weeks. I think what happened there is she was an extremely alpha female. She really disliked anyone that got around Dr. Greer that could challenge his leadership position. But I think when they went to a meeting at the Pentagon and she started telling these career officers how, why and when they should proceed with disclosure they decided she was expendable. They made an example of her by killing her.

And Dr. Greer has four daughters. So he is totally vulnerable to blackmail. And that's how he was brought in and tied up and became an unwilling spokesperson for them. They are controlling the rate and content of disclosure. And at the rate they are going we will all be Rip Van Winkle before they release everything. I think it's happening that way because the disclosure timetable is not in human hands.

ROBERT: So you are saying Extraterrestrials are involved?

DAVID: Exactly. It's all about when they are ready. And until they are ready there is nothing anyone can do to make it happen.

ROBERT: They are going to decide when to come out of the "Cosmic Closet?"

DAVID: In time and when that time is only they know. And perhaps they don't even know when that will be. They are just monitoring the course of events as they unfold on Earth and are waiting to see what happens. Because with the Arab terrorist, and what happened on 9/11 it has changed everything dramatically. As a matter of fact, every item we were talking about prior to September 11th doesn’t exist. The media doesn’t cover anything other than the conflict. So they have completely eliminated the public spotlight focusing on anything covert - that has stopped.

Attached to my disclosure letter on the web site is a form letter you can fill out regarding disclosure. I have a lot of friends in Congress that owe me favors and I have never asked them to do me a favor, but I did this time. And they basically said, "God what a time to be asking for favors David!" I requested that they give Dr. Greer his hearing on disclosure. He can't seem to get the hearing - after 5 years the doors are all slamming in his face. The Congressional and Senatorial leader I spoke to told me that the reason Greer is not making progress is because his method falls outside the political system and therefore he doesn't have the clout. He needs to find a structure that the politicians will respond to - the "What's in it for me" deal. Well, we came up with a formula on how that might work. The men in power that I talked with were willing to advance the disclosure project only if it was dealt with inside the political power structure.

ROBERT: Are you saying that the need a mandate from the people?

DAVID: Yes. Also, for the person that brings this bill to the floors of the House and the Senate this person has to be so set in their career that they are near the end and are seeking a legacy. That was the formula that hit a nerve. That was the method we agreed upon to move the agenda forward.

There has to be a payoff that will make the risk worth it. Basically that has been in the works for a few months and that is where the form letter on my web site comes in. It has picked up thousands of requests from American citizens that I will turn over these politicians and the will use that as a starting point. The thing is, it's very simple what we want - a Congressional hearing that will grant operatives total immunity from their National Security oath.

I have two reasons for doing this. One, there is an old phrase in the south - put up or shut up. I'm tired of Dr. Greer telling us that he has hundreds of witness. I know he is not blowing smoke regarding this because in 1971 I saw a lot of people working on these things…

ROBERT: You mean at Area 51?

DAVID: Right. I saw them underground working on all these different crafts and back engineering a lot of stuff. I believe there are people that have spent 30 years working on these types of projects. Imagine what they could tell us. But more importantly they would be able to tell us who paid them. Who signed the checks?

ROBERT: Are you pushing for open, public hearings?

DAVID: Absolutely. This thing would be immediately broadcast on CSPAN or some other media company. The second reason is I just want to hear what these hard core engineers have to say. That will be a party I want to attend.

ROBERT: You told me in our pre-interview that this event would change things in the infrastructure. At that point we could begin integrating some of the more advanced technologies into our infrastructure.

DAVID: Exactly. But the unraveling of everything would be absolutely outrageous and one of the small things I pointed out was I know that I was at Area 51 and I was being taken through these offices that were off to the side of the hangers and labs they took me to a room and locked me in it. And that's where I was until General LeMay came and got me. But as we were walking through these offices…

ROBERT: General Curtis Lemay personally came to get you?

DAVID: Yeah. If you read his autobiographical book called "Iron Eagle" he was the former commander of SAC (Strategic Air Command).

GENERAL CURTIS E. LeMay. Retired Feb. 1, 1965 Died Oct. 3, 1990.

General Curtis Emerson LeMay was the fifth chief of staff of the US Air Force. You will see, in the back of the book he talks about his parents. They lived in Mount Vernon, Ohio. I lived in Mount Vernon, Ohio when I built my first fusion rockets. I was on the cover of the local newspaper. And if you look at the dates on the cover of the newspaper and look at the dates in LeMay's book they run parallel.

ROBERT: Wow? How did that happen?

DAVID: Well, because his parent's caregiver was Evangeline Adair - my mother.


DAVID: So that's how LeMay came to know me personally. And when the Congressman started the funding my second rocket that's when I… here's the Mount Vernon news got wind of the story. It was the fastest thing ever built on Earth. Anyway...

ROBERT: Is this a picture of the second rocket I'm looking at? No, here is the first one and…

DAVID: Yeah, this is just all kind of newspaper stories about me that I have saved.

ROBERT: I'm looking at black and white newspaper clippings from 1971 showing David with one of his rockets.

DAVID: Here's one of me with Congressman Ashbrooke. I am giving him a working miniature model of a Saturn 5 rocket ad a present. Probably the most outrageous thing - somebody finally had enough forethought I kept mentioning that I was being funded by the Congressman for our area. His name was John Ashbrooke.

He was a very powerful Congressman from Ohio. He was chairman of the internal security committees of Congress. That's a pretty powerful place to be. He was also on the Education and Labor committees, which is how he funded my work - through the Department of Education. They gave me a grant. All these letters here are from Congressman Ashbrooke.

Look how old these are. This one is dated July 8, 1970. What I want to point out here is that I told the Air Force, when they showed up to inspect my second rocket they went gun ho on all the formulas and the prototype I built from scratch. T

hey knew I was on to something. So they funded me through the NSF (National Science Foundation).

Then my mother got concerned because the government people were just like consuming us - they were really getting involved in our lives. SO she went and talked to General LeMay. And Curtis really like my mother a lot and so he had seen the newspaper stories about me - which are these here on the table - And he came over to talk with me and then he talked with Congressman Ashbrooke.

The next thing I know LeMay told me, "David. I am going to be your buddy. I am going to be your project manager." And actually that was the greatest thing that could have happened to me because I found out much later that it was LeMay that saved my ass. This originally came out of his friendship he had with my mother.

ROBERT: Wow? That's some protection.

DAVID: Yeah. It's a reoccurring theme in my life. But what's interesting, somebody pulled the congressional records for Congressman Ashbrooke from the Library of Congress and they found all this documentation. And that person was shocked to learn that I was telling the truth. One letter in particular I told the Air Force that if I can't scale down the type of fusion engine that I am building with the right electronics and the right formulas to compress it I'm going to need a damn big vehicle to put this engine in. Because it's going to be a damn big engine.

And I found an ICBM, Titan 3 that had been pulled out of mothballs and had been given to the Center for Science and Industry, in Ohio. And they had recently pulled all the fuel out of it and parked this thing in a storage area. It was flight ready.

ROBERT: That was fortunate.

DAVID: Yeah. I would have to reconfigure the entire engine, but everything in the electronic housing was perfect. So I told the Congressman I need the Titan 3. And here is the letter saying, "We are working with them in regards to obtaining the old Titan rocket on your behalf." Now, I have a question for you. What is a congressional letter regarding securing a Titan 3 rocket for a 17 year old boy? Don't you find this a little odd?

ROBERT: Very odd.

DAVID: Right. And here are the signatures of all these politicians. Anyway, all these letters I have here from Congress are due to the work I was doing on the special project we were building.

And so after awhile I got the Titan. And during that I had some more dreams and the bottom line is I was able to reconfigure the fusion engine down to a reasonably small, workable size and everybody loved that because if you haven't seen one hauling a Titan rocket around is 30 stories tall! That would be a real logistical problem. But when I told them I could compress this thing down to a controlled blast I picked a 12-foot tall rocket housing. I had to build everything from scratch which is what all this is (points to diagrams etc.)

ROBERT: Didn't you tell me there were two rockets?

DAVID: Yes. You're right. There were two of these prototypes. This one went to the science fair. But this one is the one that no one ever saw publicly.

ROBERT: The one you told me was stealth?

DAVID: Right. We built this one so the local people would have something to see that we were working on. And the Air Force guys came over to my house every day. They took their uniforms off and walked around in T-shirts and shorts and such so the locals would think they were just average people helping out with all the rocket stuff I was building. And even when they drove they were ordered to drive their own civilian vehicles. So when the town folks came by, because of all the stories in the newspapers I was pretty popular, a lot of local people began watching me. So they just thought, "Boy he's building a big one this time." But we had two of them in production.

I set up one that I used to win the science fairs with, but here is the design we went on past the prototype stage with. Anyway, we had a front operation and another in the back. And it worked well. And that was my first introduction to covert activities.

ROBERT: I can see that.

DAVID: I started at a young age to be a covert player. But a lot of people in the UFO community think, "Of course he knows about this stuff… he's still there." But truth be told that's absolutely right. I am still in there. I'm waiting for a phone call right now to see if I'm going to be called back to active duty. And I hope I'm not, but I am there. But I have always been a double-edged sword with every entity I worked with. Because I have this really bad habit of stating the truth right in front of everybody. That doesn't go over well with the covert people.

ROBERT: I can imagine.

DAVID: But it also makes me a real mangement problem. When the military got hold of me they found that out in a hurry. I've always walked a fine edge with them. They know I work with them and help them out but they also know that they have to be careful what projects they put me in and what they expose me to because if it is totally out of line with the way we live here on Earth I'm going to say something about it.

People had openly asked why I haven't been killed and the simple answer is I'm still useful. I know something they don't so they won't just destroy me because I still cooperate and that makes me valuable.

ROBERT: Also, you apparently have some unseen forces protecting you?

DAVID: There is. There absolutely is. There are so many times I should have been killed in crashes and explosions where I was the only one walking out. Sometimes I have come out without even being injured. Sometimes I have been in the hospital for a long stay, but I'm still here.

ROBERT: Well, let's go back to Area 51 when General LeMay came to get you out?

DAVID: Yeah. What happened was… this whole story has been testified to in Congress. That was the weirdest thing. All this documentation that I am showing you here I took with me to Congress. And when we did this whole thing started, Dr. Greer told me that he had 125 hardware contact people. And I thought that was reasonable because I had seen a lot of people working at Area 51. I knew that most of them worked there full time.

Greer wanted me to testify April 9th, which was a Wednesday, in 1997, in Washington D.C. and I didn't want to because it is really treading the fine line of National Security and my self. And although I could tell this one particular story I was only 17 years old when that happened. According to Constitutional Law the Federal government is prohibited from signing a minor to a National Security Oath.

So like Strom Thurman said to me one time, "You’re the biggest loose cannon on the deck boy." Because they showed me all this stuff and then it was too late. Anyway, I told Congress the entire story. Prior the briefing to Congress, they had me tell my story.

And when I got there… first, getting me there was a problem because I didn't want to go. Dr. Greer just kept calling me every day until finally, two days before the hearings I agreed to go because Greer got me with this one thing. He said, "What if I have all these people that are going to testify at a closed door hearing and you are invited and you didn't go. You would have missed out on all of this.

ROBERT: That's a good argument.

DAVID: Well, after a couple days of thinking that over and realized there was more to the story that I never got. So I thought it would be good for me to sit in on these hearings and learn something. And that's when I agreed to go. They sent me an electronic ticket and I went to Washington D.C. the next day. So when I got to the prescreening we went into this room and there were only 11 witnesses. And I'm wondering where the rest of the 125 people are? And beside, the story I have would be nothing compared to people that had worked 30 years on these projects. So I believed that being 1 guy amongst 125 would be relatively safe.

So the 11 of us are asked to tell our stories. 9 of the 11 have only seen lights and blips on radar or in the sky! And I'm thinking "Oh God?" The 10th guy was an attorney from Nashville. He said he was in the basement of the Pentagon in 1960 working as an encryption officer. His commander walked in one day and threw a piece of metal about one foot long on the table and told the men this was debris from an alien spacecraft. We want you to decode these symbols. Anyway, Greer said that there was no way they could decode that at the Pentagon. And I'm sitting there listening to this and thinking there is one guy here besides me that has at least seen a piece of hardware.

And then there was me - a guy who had built the fastest rocket on Earth. It was solid propellant - the world's first electromagnetic fusion containment. And when I flew my second prototype it landed in the one of the world's most top secret Air Force bases in history. They take me underground and show me an alien engine/power plant… and the damn thing was still alive?

It was a symbiotic engine. It could interface with live entities… humans or whatever. And it worked very similar to the Soviet HUD technology featured in the movie "FOXFIRE."

The pilot could think "Lock and fire" and the plane would respond. It was a symbiotic relationship. I wonder where they got the idea for that?

ROBERT: Interesting.

DAVID: So, this engine/power plant had the ability that allowed you to merge with it.

ROBERT: Through your brain waves?

DAVID: Yeah. And you and it would become symbiotic. What a perfect way to travel through space or anywhere - you and your craft/engine are symbiotic entities.

ROBERT: Let's go back to your experience at Area 51 with General Curtis LeMay. How did he get you out of the room you were being held in?

DAVID: What happened was, well it was very simple. I blew my own engine up. I sabotaged my own rocket after it landed at Area 51. I blew it into a billion pieces. That wasn't hard to do actually. After they showed me the engine downstairs - when I came back up I knew what they were after from this engine.

ROBERT: Which engine?

DAVID: The Electromagnetic Fusion Containment engine because they are so fast. There is nothing like it. The liquid fuel and solid propellant engines are like Model-T's compared to a Lamborghini. This thing took off so fast. It went from zero MPH to 8,754 MPH in about 4.6 seconds. It was so fast that you couldn't even see it.

ROBERT: From a standing start?

DAVID: Right. You couldn't even see it. It would be like trying to watch a bullet leave a rifle barrel.

ROBERT: That's not possible with the naked eye.

DAVID: Right. So everyone else at the launch site thought it blew up. It's an elaborate story regarding the launching of this rocket, but it left so fast. I built everything out of titanium. We had incronel we had carbonite. We had every kind of known material for lightness and strength incorporated in that rocket. And because of the extreme G-force of the launch everything inside was just warped, it was bent.

ROBERT: But the engine was still intact when the rocket landed are Area 51?

DAVID: Exactly. It came down on a parachute. And that is where it got weird because there are a lot of characters in this story.

The man that was really on my case - he was a bad guy. Dr. Werner Von Braun warned me - I knew Von Braun as a child because I was doing all this work with rockets in the early '70s when we were landing men on the moon. An hour and a half drive from my house was Wapakenneta which is where Neil Armstrong lived. His mother Viola and I became friends. She became like a serogate mother to me.

So I was hanging out with her and I would see Neil around the house. And many times I would go over to her house and I would run right past Neil and go hang out with Viola. And Neil loved that about me because I wasn't interested in his fame - I just loved his mother. Neil was a very reclusive person… almost like a hermit because when he came back from the moon mission he literally just disappeared.

Anyway, because I was in that kind of environment I got to attend parties where all the original Apollo 7 astronauts would show up and Von Braun showed up.

And that's how we all crossed paths and I started interfacing with him. The thing is Von Braun warned me that if, during my rocket work, I should encounter a man named Dr. Arthur Rudolph that I should be extremely careful because he is so dangerous.

Dr. Arthur Rudolph was the chief architect of the Saturn-5 engines of our Apollo Moon rocket. Rudolph came into the U.S. with Von Braun and other German scientists under "Operation Paperclip."

Rudolph was a full Colonel in the Gestapo. He had killed hundreds of thousands of Jews personally during the building of the V-2 rockets and Penemunde. If you made a mistake he would put a cable around your neck and slowly lift you up which would strangle you. Then, he would disembowel you and leave you hanging there for everyone to see.

There were rotted corpses hanging all over the place. They would also feed you sawdust and water. This would take the hunger out of your stomach until you fell over dead then they would just replace you with more fresh people.


DAVID: This man was the winner of the most distinguished service award - the highest award NASA can give. Now, if you think I am making all this up have a look at this.


DAVID: This is a copy of the Atlanta Weekly. Here are pictures of people who were hung. There is a passport being handed to Dr. Rudolph. And the Massad caught up with Dr. Rudolph on May 25th, 1984 he was deported out of LAX to Munich, Germany by the Moussad where he died due to war crimes. And why didn't the national press corps tell us?

ROBERT: Wait a minute. Are you saying he was assassinated?

DAVID: No. He was kept in prison until he died of natural causes. NASA didn't want to acknowledge any of this. Here is a picture of Dr. Arthur Rudolph. He looks like a kindly little old grandfather doesn't he?


DAVID: And here is some of his handiwork. See all the dead people.

ROBERT: Oh my God… that's horrible.

DAVID: Anyway, when I arrived at White Sands, New Mexico - let me back up. General LeMay had sent me from Mount Vernon, Ohio to Wright Patterson, in Dayton, Ohio where the SAC headquarters was located. From there we, me and my rocket, and some other colonels all got onboard a C-141 transport and flew to White Sands.

And when we got to White Sands a black DC-9 plane showed up. LeMay had told me that if this plane showed up it would be a real problem for me. And out stepped these guys wearing suits and mirrored sunglasses. And among them was this one little guy wearing khaki uniform - it was Dr. Rudolph. Dr. Von Braun had showed me his picture.

ROBERT: Whom was Dr. Rudolph working for?

DAVID: He was working for someone. Either NSA or one of those alphabet soup intelligence agencies. But he was primarily working for NASA. But as soon as he got off the plane he asked to see my rocket. Asked him who he was and he told me, "Oh. I'm just a guy that inspects rockets for the government." I asked him if he was from NASA and he said he had never worked there.

So we walked over to my rocket and I opened up a side panel. And when he leaned over to look at the engine he began mumbling to himself and he seemed really upset probably because I had built something he thought that was impossible to do.

So I took that opportunity to lean over and whisper in his ear, "Do you know that in proportional size that this engine has 10,000 times the thrust of the F-1, Saturn-5 engines Dr. Rudolph?" And he stood up and was furious. He wanted to know who I am and how I know so much. And I told him, "I'm just a kid that launches rockets in the cow fields of Ohio."

ROBERT: (laughter)

DAVID: Anyway, I had friends around me that were Colonels in the Air Force because LeMay had picked these guys to take care of me. So, after Dr. Rudolph and I met he told me that he wanted to change to landing coordinates. He was really nasty about it.

The navigation system I was using was off-the-shelf stuff. Back in those days if was all analog. But I had is programmed to where the rocket would come back down within a 2-mile radius of the launch site. Dr. Rudolph had me reprogram the coordinates so that my rocket would land 456 miles northwest of White Sands in an area called "Groom Lake," in Nevada.

And so I immediately pulled out my national survey maps and I'm looking at Groom Lake and I thought, "My God. Why are we launching up to a dry lakebed in Nevada? It's so far away." Dr. Rudolph told me, "Just do it!" He was really hostile. And I had been warned many times by Von Braun and LeMay that if I run into Dr. Rudolph to not push his buttons.

So I reset the coordinates on the guidance system and we launched my rocket and it took off perfectly. And sure enough it landed right on target. And you know, it wasn't until they made the movie "Independence Day" that I ever heard the term "Area 51."

ROBERT: How could that be?

DAVID: I always knew this place as Groom Lake. It was the only name I had ever heard for that place growing up. So we were getting ready to board the plane to go and recover the rocket and I just had to say something. I said, "Hey, do you see these rubber tires on this plane? Would you please tell me how you are going to land this thing on a dry lakebed? This thing is going to plow into the ground and never leave." Someone yelled at me to shut up and get in the plane.

And after a while we arrived and as we flew over I looked down at these twin 10,000 foot runways and I said, "My God! There's a huge base here?" So we land at this place that doesn't exist on any map and that's when I started getting really concerned. I was trying to locate any Air Force emblems, Navy emblems any kind of logos or emblems that would identify the commanding authority - nothing anywhere on any of the buildings.

Normally, standard universal painting of water towers at an airstrip is an orange and white checkerboard patter. But here, everything was painted either solid white or solid black. So they were not conforming to any code. So after we got out of the plane we got on this go-cart-looking thing - kind of like the electric carts that you see at airports. And we drove over to a series of hangers and headed for the center one.

And as we got closer to the buildings it was really cool they way this place was built. There were all these really big lights at the top that had luvers on them so the light will shine down. And if you are out in the dessert were that area is you would not be able to see the light. And when you get close to the buildings they look old and ratty like they had used two different kinds of paints, but underneath that the alloy was just like no alloy I had ever seen.

It was an incredible looking metal. It more like… a stainless steel type of metal which I thought was a really unusual metal to use to make buildings that big with. When we got inside the hanger, we went down to the basement area. Actually, we drove into the hanger and there were little yellow lights flashing and big hanger doors and then, out of the ground came all these little pipes with chains attached so that blocked off all the doorways. Then, the whole floor about the size of a football field slowly dropped down. The entire hanger was an unenclosed elevator.

ROBERT: Wow. So, it was more like a hydraulic lift in a garage?

DAVID: Yeah, but it was built to carry some really heavy stuff. The floor was made of concrete. God knows how much weight that was. The whole thing went up and down on giant worm screws.

ROBERT: Okay. I see. That's a lot more stable than using a hydraulic system.

DAVID: Nothing can take the load like a worm screw. My God, these things were the size of Sequoia trees and there were at least 12 of them lifting the floor. And we went down at least 200 feet until we rested flush with the floor of an underground hanger that was… huge. It had a huge arched ceiling, but it went so far… you couldn't see the end of it. It just went forever.

And I thought, "My God. You could park a hundred 747s in here and they wouldn't even be in the way." And I made a joke at that point. I asked, "What in God's name did you do with all the dirt?" And they just looked really strange at me. I guess they didn't expect me to try and figure things like that out.

Along the walls they were at least 30 feet high and along the walls were different workshops and laboratories and periodically there were big, huge workbays. So we went riding down through there and there were all kinds of aircraft that I had never seen. Some of them I had seen like the XB-70.

ROBERT: Was this area carved out of dirt or was it rock?

DAVID: I don't know. Everything was coated with a ceramic like material.

ROBERT: I thought there were mountains surrounding the dry lakebed? Those must be fairly solid with a high rock content.

DAVID: Yeah. There are all kinds of mountain ranges around that area. I never saw any "dirt" because everything was concreeted over or covered with some type of material. The most interesting thing about this to me still is how well lit the underground area was.

There were no shadows anywhere. And there were no light fixtures, anywhere. And I was wondering how they generated that much light. It didn't look like the walls were glowing or the floor or the ceilings. It was just… everything every square inch of this place was lit and yet there was no visible source of light.

And after we had been driving for awhile and we had passed a lot of different aircraft we took a road to the left that took us away from a lot of the other activities. I could see a lot of people working on stuff.

These aircraft were operational some of them I have never seen before or since. They were shaped like a reverse teardrop. And there were others that looked similar to the flying wing. One aircraft, the XB-70 was a Delta Wing bomber built in 1959.

ROBERT: And you were at Area 51 in 1971?

DAVID: Right. June 20th, 1971. So, we get there and it was just amazing because we drove up to the side of these big steel doors and one of the officers got out and put his hand on a scanner type thing. And he looks down at it and it flashed a light at him. I thought it took his picture and I was trying to figure out what was going on.

Now, I would have to guess that was a retinal scanning device. And after the guy was scanned the door opened up so I knew this was a security system of kind. And this is 1971. Let me put this into perspective. In 1971 we had no laptops, no modems, no FAX, no VCR, no Cell phones we didn't even have hand held calculators. Texas Instruments developed those about 5 years later. So where in the hell did these guys get all this technology?

So we went into the room and I immediately noticed the temperature drop because it was warm in the big open areas we had just come from. It was very cool in this room. You could almost see your breath. And as soon as we entered the room the lights, wherever they were coming from, came on.

And again there were no shadows being cast… anywhere. Then, someone threw a switch and activated a hoist attached to some cables that were attached to a big tarp. The tarp was lifted straight up and there, sitting on this huge steel platform an electromagnetic fusion containment engine. And I immediately knew that because its configuration was similar to mine, but it was the size of a Greyhound bus. Mine was about the size of a large watermelon. And you can recognize engines as they are comparable.

If I had an internal combustion engine taken out of a Model-A Ford and had it sitting on the ground and you pulled an engine out of a Viper, today, and placed them side-by-side you are going to recognize that they operate on the same principle of internal combustion. However, the difference in performance between the two is unbelievable.

It was the same situation with my little engine and this thing they had stored underground. They both ran on the same principle the same configuration, but the level of sophistication is like that of the Model-A compared to the Viper engine. This thing they had was so powerful. There were so many design features that I didn't recognize, for reasons that became clear.

ROBERT: At this point you were just looking at the engine. Where was the rest of the craft?

DAVID: Well that's where the argument started. And they asked me if I liked what I saw. And I said, "well, yeah. But I'm confused. I thought I was the first one to build one of these engines." And this is where it really started getting odd. The colonel that was with Dr. Rudolph said, "Son you want to help us with this design here since yours is very similar to it and you do want to help your country don't you?"

And I had listened to Anita Bryant as a boy. And I had an American flag blanket. And I listened to Anita Bryant's record before I went to sleep. I was a real patriotic flag waver even in the '70s. Of course it wasn't real popular to do that then because the war in Vietnam was still raging.

ROBERT: I recall.

DAVID: So my peers couldn't understand why I loved America so much, but it was just the way I was raised. So at first I agreed with the colonel that I did want to help. Then, I asked, "But where are your people that built this engine?" He told me, "Well… they are on vacation right now. You're off on summer vacation right?" And I said, "Okay? That's good. Did they leave any notes on their work that I can look at?" I was told, "Well… they took them with them as homework. You get homework." And I was thinking, "You know this is really condescending. I am 17 years old." But that's how they treated 17 year olds back then.

So I thought, "Okay… I will play along with this asshole." I agreed to help them, but told them that I needed to get a closer look at the engine. And they agreed at which point I walked up and got onto the platform. And the closer I got to it the more I realized that these people had no idea what this engine was - they were still trying to figure it out. I could tell that it didn't belong to us. And when I was about three feet away the first thing I noticed was a perfect shadow of myself on the engine. And what did I tell you earlier?

ROBERT: There were no shadows anywhere.

DAVID: Right. So how is my shadow showing up on this thing? And stranger still was the shadow moved about a half-a-second behind me. And that really got my attention. And I thought, "if this is what I think it is its heat sensitive recognition alloy." And then I realized we don't have known material that could do that.

ROBERT: Not officially... no.

DAVID: So I looked up at the engine and I thought, "Holy smokes!" I asked for permission to climb to the top because I wanted to see the damaged area. The thing had a hole about four feet in diameter in the side of it and this was the area that most interested me.

Do you recall the crop circle image #5 you sent me?

ROBERT: Yes, it was the Chilbolton image. It appeared in the same field exactly one year before the face on Mars crop image.

DAVID: I don't follow any of this crop circle stuff, but there is a connection here. Anyway, back at Area 51, I needed to see the damaged area. It was right in the middle. Now, think of a figure 8. And right where the two circles cross each other that is the eye of the hurricane and that's where the damage was located on this engine.

Knowing my own engine, I was assuming that this thing had experienced some kind of breech in the electromagnetic flux field that is the containment walls that harness the power of the reactor engine. These engines basically function like a magnetic bottle or sphere and inside you have contained the power of the Sun or a Hydrogen bomb continuously detonating.

It's not impossible to figure out how this works because it occurs all the time out in space. Black holes can suck an entire galaxy full of Suns into their point of singularity. Obviously a Black Hole has no problem containing that fusion energy.

So, what I did is mathematically figured out a way to artificially create a synthetic black hole. And because it is based on a figure-eight design, once it has stabilized it will always implode and consume itself without pulling everything around it in. But this engine at Area 51 had lost its stabilization in the figure eight and that's why I was so curious about the hole.

So, it gets good because the minute I touched this engine - and the way it was built was really cool - it was the size of a Greyhound bus. There wasn't a single screw or rivet or weld seams anywhere on this entire device from end to end. It looked like it was grown rather than assembled. And I thought, "Man. Whoever built this really has some incredible manufacturing techniques." Which, over the years, I have been able to replicate to some extent in an experiment that I built. It flew onboard one of the 1993 Space Shuttle missions.

That was part of the GAS program… Get Away Special. That's where you rent space in a 55-gallon drum for your project. The first thing I did was melt alloys together and when you spin them in a weightless environment you can create any type of dimension you want because I figured out a way to control this. There was always a question about how do you shape liquid metals in a weightless environment.

ROBERT: So what is the control mechanism?

DAVID: It's a containerless process. It's a real phenomenon.

ROBERT: You made a form without using a mold?

DAVID: Right. So how do you take that fluid glob floating in this weightless environment and control it. I found that for every geometric shape and dimension we know there is a corresponding sound wave.

So I created this machine that attached to a Moog Sythesyser which allowed me to replicate any shape I wanted simply by playing notes. This machine generates interlocking standing sound waves that vibrate even in space and which allowed me to shape the liquid metal. And that proved to me what I had suspected when I first saw the engine at Area 51 in 1971 - whoever built that engine used this process.

This raised an even larger question in my mind. Who could have built an engine of this size in space? I have never discussed this publicly.

ROBERT: Well, thanks for sharing that discovery with me.

DAVID: But I was curious and I wanted to replicate that engine design which was clearly built in a weightless environment.

ROBERT: Space, right?

DAVID: Deep space. Like intergalactic deep space.

ROBERT: Because you wouldn't want your design process to encounter any gravitational fields.

DAVID: The less the better. They are called gravity convections. They didn't want any gravity convection currents to show up in the alloy shaping process. So what happened at Area 51 was I placed my hands on the engine to pull myself up. I began to climb up the engine, which was designed with an extoskelital structure.

The best way to phrase this and I met this guy once and if he isn't a "walk-in" alien I don't know who is. His name is H.R. Geiger. I don't know if you have ever seen his work, but I suggest you go to a bookstore and get a copy. He is the designer that created all the sets of the "Alien" movies.

ROBERT: Okay. I think I know what you are talking about now, design wise.

DAVID: He was the first person I know of on Earth to create that organic technology - where the ribbing of the ship looks like vertebrae. The engine I saw looked exactly like that.

ROBERT: That makes sense.

DAVID: When I saw "Alien" the first time, in 1997, when they walked into the entrance of that big ship my friends thought I was having a seizure or something because I was saying "Oh my God! I've seen that before." The Alien wasn't even on screen yet and people were telling me to shut up.

ROBERT: Did you ever do a drawing of the engine you saw at Area 51?

DAVID: Yes. It is on a video called The UFO Uncoverup. It's not correctly done. It's a good start, but I have to finish the details. But it was easy crawling up the outside of the thing because it had an extoskeletal structure.

ROBERT: So what happened when you touched it?

DAVID: It was warm which didn't make any sense at all. It was so cold in that hanger you could see your breath. I looked around on the floor and saw no power lines. So I asked myself how in the world could this alloy be staying warm? And it was hard. It was the hardest material I have ever touched. It didn't give anywhere. The surface cohesion tension on it felt more like a baby's skin. It was supple, but hard and warm?

ROBERT: That is weird especially for metal.

DAVID: Yeah and I'm thinking what the heck is going on? And as I'm crawling up everywhere I touched the surface it reacted. When I turned and looked at the Air Force guys all their mouths were hanging open. And so I assumed that the reaction they were seeing hadn't happened for them, because wherever I touched it there were these really amazing blue and white swirls moving down through the hull of this thing - it looked like wavelengths that you see on an oscilloscope.

When I pulled my hands off it stopped. And I said, "Wow! This thing is reacting?" So I continued to climb up until I reached the center area. And it has these vertebrae that branch off cascading, fiber-like… they looked almost like fiber optic cables filled with some kind of fluid. They were very small tubes the size of angel hair pasta. There were millions of these things cascading over the hull of this engine. And I thought, "Boy these patterns look familiar…?" Then it dawned on me; they looked like neural synaptic firing patterns.


DAVID: There were millions of them going out everywhere on this thing. So I thought maybe the engine was designed with an extoskeletal brain. And at that point I reached out and grabbed some of the fibers and found they were really tough and that there was fluid in them. And wherever I touched, no matter what I touched there would be a reaction to it like a tremor of visual lights.

As I walked down into the damaged area of this thing and finally I said to the Air Force guys, "You know… this thing if a power plant. It is more than a propulsion system. It is a power plant. It obviously came out of a big vehicle… a craft of some kind. Where is that craft located?" Now they were not happy with me, but I continued. "A craft like this must have had a crew. What did you do with those people? This is clearly not American or Soviet technology is it boys? This is some kind of extraterrestrial entity… how old is it? Did you dig it up? Is it millions of years old or did you guys shoot it down?"

And man, they got really upset. They told the MPs to take me down off the engine. As I am coming down I am really pissed off. I am so pissed because I have had enough. At this point I knew where I was. I knew that this engine was from somewhere other than Earth.

I didn't know where it came from or how long they had had it, but it was obvious that my whole world was coming undone in that moment. I grew up in a world where the government would never lie. We had just landed on the Moon the year before. And here the Air Force had this technology and they weren't saying anything, which made me furious.

ROBERT: Let's back up a little… when you were on the engine there was something that you told me in a previous conversation that you saw that I found really fascinating. How and when did you see the interior of the reactor? Can you describe the crystals?

DAVID: What happened was the damaged area I asked for permission to inspect the inside of the engine where it had been blown open. They hesitated on that request.

ROBERT: This is before you made them angry?

DAVID: Before I came out of that damaged area totally pissed off. Because, when I got down in this thing they told me to make it brief. So I get down and look in the area man there was some incredible looking technology up and down this engine. And I couldn't get more than three feet into it before I came up to a wall.

And this wall… it was like the iris/shutter on a camera lens. It has lots of interlocking fans that contract or expand and I always thought that would make the coolest door. Well, there was this little round pod-thing there and I just put my hand on it and when I did the wall just shuttered open.

ROBERT: It opened for you?

DAVID: It made a slight noise.

ROBERT: Maybe that's where they got the inspiration for the door design you saw at Area 51?

DAVID: It could have been. I have no idea. But I just...

ROBERT: So, after this door opens you were really in the interior of the reactor.

DAVID: Yeah. I got to look deeper into the engine. And what I saw in there was fascinating. It was such a trip being there because whenever I worked on my fusion engines everything was so small. Some parts I even had to machine under a microscope. Now, here was a replication of my basic design that was big enough to walk through.

ROBERT: It must have felt a little like you had walked through the microscope.

DAVID: Yeah! Now I'm a microbe walking through my own engine. But man this thing… what I had manufactured to achieve a certain function in my engine this thing would have something else in its place. And this something else would be stuff I couldn't begin to recognize.

There were these crystals that were facing each other. They were fabulous looking crystals. And they were integrated into this plasma duct type thing through there. And in my engine, I had such a hard time getting a cyclotron to curve the blast waves I needed for propulsion.

This thing had some kind of venting system that allowed them to flush their plasma out through an area that looked the gills of a shark. The whole thing was so organic looking. It looked like a living machine - both organic and inorganic incorporated together. It was an oxymoron. How do you explain something like that? So, anyway, I just got to see a lot of stuff in there that I couldn't believe.

ROBERT: How many minutes were you in the interior alone?

DAVID: I don't think I was in there more than five minutes. I know that doesn’t sound like a very long time, but it felt like I was in there a week.

ROBERT: And I believe you said you have a photographic memory

DAVID: Yeah. I was just clicking no stop. I was just absorbing it all in and when I left I didn't touch that pod - right? But as soon as I passed that area the door closed behind me. I never told the Air Force guys that I went into that part of the engine

ROBERT: Why not?

DAVID: I don't think they ever knew there was another compartment in the interior that they could enter.


DAVID: I don't believe that it allowed them access. There was a presence though about this engine. Just like you have a presence of a person and an entity. It just had its own.

So I came out of the engine and was totally pissed off because I knew there was no way we could have built it. It was using some kind of crystal containment field power that we can't even imagine.

I would have to work on it for a long time to figure out how they were doing the fractions. Where I was using the plasma in a linear mode this thing was designed to go any direction it wanted with its plasma flows. That's impossible.

ROBERT: With a rocket?

DAVID: Yeah. This thing could do anything. And I really wondered who in the hell built it.

So as I started coming down the outside of the engine after we got into a big argument I noticed that now wherever I touched the engine it was no longer reacting with the nice blue and white swirls of energy. They had changed to a reddish-orange flame looking patterns.

And as I calmed down to try and figure out what that was it changed back to the bluish white more tranquil looking pattern. That's when I realized that the engine was not just heat sensitive it reacts to mental waves.

It is symbiotic and will lock on to how you think and feel. This allows it to interface with you and that means this thing was aware. And it knew it was there. And I knew that it knew I was there. (At this point, the conversation continued off the record.)

ROBERT: Can we refer back to image #5.

DAVID: Okay. The first time I looked at it I noticed that when you look at the three circles and the way they are interlocking this refers to the figure-eight pattern I mentioned earlier. If you look at the axioms of the smaller circles that move outward from the bigger circles this indicates the fields are stabilizing.

This is critical to sustaining the electromagnetic containment fusion reaction. And when you first sent me that image I immediately recognized it as the same image I saw in 1966 when I started working with it mathematically on paper.

ROBERT: How did you see it in 1966?

DAVID: Well, I had reoccurring dreams of that image and built electromagnetic fields based on them once I worked out the math that would allow me to stabilize the equations. I was surprised when I looked closely at Image #5 and saw the two little curves on the outside of the bigger arcs.

That is how you build a replicating echo effect in these fields which allows you to build a second field on top of a first field. And the reason that would be so convenient is because you could have one field that is containing the engine/reactor - the other neat thing about image #5 is I built a three-dimensional model of that in 1966.

If you can imagine a stack of donuts and the engine and the craft is located inside the hole and as these fields are beginning to stabilize around the engine the echo effect like a stack of donuts would be encased in the secondary field. So you can answer an immensely powerful equation with this power plant - it has been somewhat of a paradox. How can you travel millions of times faster than the speed of light without breaking the speed of light?

ROBERT: How is that possible?

DAVID: Well, you can demonstrate this with a plain piece of paper. You take a sheet like this... and fold one side to the other.

We think the shortest distance between these two points is a straight line, but there is a quicker way to get there. Imagine that this piece of paper is 200 million light years across. Well, even our spacecraft travelling at the speed of light it would still take 200 million years.

What happens is the secondary field starts behaving space the same as it's cousin - one is artificial the other is natural. What happens is it begins curving space/time. Like all black holes can do they bend light and space around themselves. So space begins wrapping itself around the craft when the engine fields stabilize the space around them begins to roll up like a scroll and then when you are ready to turn on your engines and move in a linear fashion you only need to fly the thickness of the paper.

ROBERT: That's only a fraction of one percent of the distance!

DAVID: Right… and after a couple of minutes, you shut your engines off and now you are 200 million light years across space and you went millions of times faster than the speed of light without breaking the speed of light.

ROBERT: Wouldn't that adversely affect the fabric of space?

DAVID: No because the fabric as we know it is elastic. So just because it would roll it can be done without affecting all the time/matter systems inside of space. We are talking about a transdimensional jump.

It's not necessarily a blast thorough linear space, but a journey through trans-space. And that's why you can do this type of flying with these kinds of engines in these kind of crafts and still be on a relevant scale. Star Trek never wanted to address this issue, but if they were flying at Warp 9 chasing someone

ROBERT: What are they warping?

DAVID: They are warping the square root of space, which is 1,500 times the speed of light?

ROBERT: But how did they warp space?

DAVID: With a thing called a "dilithium crystal." That's something we don't have now.

ROBERT: Let's just assume we had one... how would it work?

DAVID: Well, the way they charged the dilithium crystals they would emit an energy field fed from a matter anti-matter reactor. The big cells that run down the sides of the engine room... that's your matter anti-matter charging units that contain a matter annihilation reaction. This is extreme because the explosive power of this type of total matter annihilation gives off so much energy.

The energy was then channeled through the crystals that were able to keep the energy field uniform. You can just imagine how much power there is from a matter annihilation reactor... and it's running through the ship.

I recall a scene where Spock opened up one of those while it was online at idle and he was just fried. The charged particles of protons and electrons were just driven through him.

ROBERT: What would you like to say about image 5 in parting? Is this a blueprint for a large fusion containment engine?

DAVID: Yeah... you see that's just the thing. This is not necessarily a jet propulsion rocket engine... where you have gas spewed out a nozzle which gives the vehicle it's forward momentum. These engines…

ROBERT: We are now talking about real Star Ships that use their engines to warp space?

DAVID: Right. The type of engines they are using today using liquid and solid fuel propellants... those engines don't really give all the power we would really like to have. So, we need a different form of power.

And that's where I think the electromagnetic fusion containment engines would fit in really well. I'm not the only one who is doing studies on these things. NASA's began its research along these lines parallel to the time I was doing my research.

If you look up on the NASA website, at Huntsville Alabama, at Marshall Space Flight Center you will see in their long-range Planning Departments there are 77 engines listed. These are all designs that would get you off Earth and yet they are only using 2 right now.

So there are 75 engines that you haven't even seen yet. And of that 75 my engine is listed in there as "Electromagnetic Fusion Containment System."

ROBERT: Is that the actual name of it?

DAVID: Yeah and NASA has been working on it as well. The only difference was trying to get the field to stabilize and contained.

ROBERT: Has that been done?

DAVID: Not permanently. That's how the whole math thing got started. I couldn't hold the field together long enough until I finally got help and we worked on it together. And I got up to about 4.5 seconds which may not sound like much but I believe NASA only gets up to about .0089 seconds.

ROBERT: But if we could have an engine like that generated that much energy for sustained amounts of time... if we channeled it into a echo field you are convinced we could somehow warp space and travel from one point in the galaxy to another in a matter of seconds?

DAVID: Yes, but in our real time. Star Trek never really addressed that aspect of physics. At Warp 9 they could never have received radio transmissions and when they returned to base everyone they knew would be dead long ago.

They won't talk about that paradox because they can't... its too damn complex. At those speeds they would out run their own lights on the ship! (laughter) They don't want to talk about those types of very complex problems.

But I need to address issues associated with the type of physics of the engines I'm building. I have to describe it on a mass level in order to share the possibility of anything like that occurring in the future. It's a trip to be working on these new engines because it's not just a propulsion rocket engine. Even though it will work that way it's not achieving its true potential. But by keeping it contained and using it in other fashions... it becomes a power plant.

ROBERT: You mean, when you feed it back into itself... instead of opening one end of the reactor?

DAVID: Right. In my first two rockets, I would literally let the fusion plasma spew right out as it regenerated and let the containment fields modify their shape… it will function that way. The problem is that everything is so complex at the math end of it. I have not been able to figure out how to sustain the reaction in a steady field.

ROBERT: But based on the crop circle image #5 at Chilbolton do you believe someone already knows the answer? You mentioned it looked like the same thing you saw as a blueprint for fusion containment and warp drive system.

DAVID: Or it could be a message… because what's on there is like the general diagram. There's nothing specific in the details that would help me figure it all out. The containment fields are so hard to do.

That's the problem with fusion reactors - they are so hard to contain. And where you close the actual Firgure-8 and it's running at infinity. I just can't seem to do it. The problem is you have to build these mathematical models that allow you to see the pattern that these things run in - the algorithms

ROBERT: That's why I suggested you look at the Complexity Theory as the best model to use.

DAVID: Right, and the computer that I would need to do that with.

ROBERT: And the software for that has only recently begun development. The nexus for that came from the Santa Fe Institute, in New Mexico.

DAVID: They all have the same problem. Stephen Hawkins and I came to the same dead end on speed because we have 1Ghz computers and we need about 85Ghz.

ROBERT: I see.

DAVID: Because you have to be able to extend these algorithms out to where you see the repetitive patterns emerge.

ROBERT: I know. They mutate based on their genetic fitness.

DAVID: They do… and you have to counter for that as a mathematical equation so if I'm off a little right here... when I get over there I'm way off with the width of the Universe so it's really hard to do this work without the right computation speed.

ROBERT: You also mentioned something about dreams that you had about crop circles recently.

DAVID: Yeah! That's the strangest thing. I started getting reoccurring dreams. And after a while I got annoyed with it. However, I got a mental message that I needed to tell my dream to somebody who knows about crop circles. The only person I know in that field is Colin Andrews.

Based on the images I have seen there is definitely an intellect at work there that we don't know about. My dream was, if you would take the days in a month there are five weeks and used that as a five bar scale. And you then find what days the crop circles first formed and plot them on the calendar. That data then translates to the five bar scale as notes. Once you get enough of them in there you will see the entire song emerge and it repeats itself.

ROBERT: Did you know they did this process with DNA recently.

DAVID: Really? No I didn't. So my dream went on to say that the beings who sent us the crop circles don't have a larynx... they don't have voice boxes... they don't talk. They express their thoughts by sound waves and math... what we call music.

They thought that we would have gotten the message by now and played this song back to them. We would have to play this on some digital, high-gain antenna. Probably something like what SETI uses. Then they will communicate with us.

ROBERT: And it just occurred to me that this is right out of the movie Close Encounters of the Third Kind. The government used music to communicate with the ETs.

DAVID: Right. I didn't think of it. I called Colin Andrews and told him my dream. He said the hair on his arms was standing up.

He also told me that there are a lot of people that are getting messages particularly the people that have nothing to do with crop circles as a rule. Right after that dream you sent me image #5.

ROBERT: Crop image #5 appeared one day short of a year prior to the two complex, rectangular crop formations at Chilbolton.

DAVID: You see they are all connected. Colin is going to work on the musical end, but I find the coincidence really interesting.

ROBERT: It certainly is. Thank you for your insights.

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